Episode 9 Transcript | Research 'n Rage
Cathy Mann: Welcome to, It Doesn't hurt to Ask! A podcast where we talk about fundraising. This season, we'll be talking to shift disturbers in philanthropy, people who are shaking up traditional philanthropy practices. In this episode we're talking to Dr. Elizabeth Dale and Assistant Professor in the Master of Nonprofit Leadership Program at Seattle University. Before becoming an academic, Elizabeth served as director of development at a large community hospital in Chicago and as a campaign manager for the YWCA Metropolitan Chicago. She has both her PhD and her CFRE. Elizabeth, welcome to, It Doesn't Hurt to Ask! The podcast where we talk about philanthropy.
Elizabeth Dale: Thanks for having me, Cathy.
Cathy Mann: Yeah, this is so great. So you are here in Toronto today. Usually you reside in Seattle? Yeah?
Elizabeth Dale: I do. I'm an assistant professor at Seattle University in their Nonprofit Leadership Program and I was here in Toronto for AFP's congress.
Cathy Mann: Awesome. And I just attended a session that you did with your colleague Sarah, and it was really super interesting. So the title was...help me out
Elizabeth Dale: Fundraising as women's work.
Cathy Mann: Yeah.
Elizabeth Dale: Question Mark.
Cathy Mann: Right.
Elizabeth Dale: How do we value, uh, the profession? And so one of the things I've been interested in since I've been a fundraiser is why are there so many women in this profession and why are there are more men at the top then I think there, there should be and that there should be proportionate to how many women are in the profession overall.
Cathy Mann: Right. So you showed some really interesting statistics, some of them that you got from the Canada's version of the AFP salary survey. And, um, I mean, what I found interesting and perhaps disheartening only because it just confirmed what we sort of has always known. Yeah. Men are in more senior roles, they're making more money than us. Yeah
Elizabeth Dale: Yeah. And women actually became more than 50% of fundraisers all the way back in the, in the 80s, at least in the US and so, you know, we've had now, um, more than 30 years since then and we're still seeing in some cases, $20,000 pay differentials between men and women as well as differences in the rep in who's at the top. So there are more male CEOs and CDOs on average than there are women in those positions.
Cathy Mann: So what was interesting to me at the table that I was sitting at was that we were sort of took the view that uh, okay, it's time now for us to just how do we change this? Um, I think for years, and I've been part of this chorus of voices that has complained and I, it was heartening to me that the women at the table, we're really taking this, this position of, okay, we know this. It's confirmed research has shown it. Now what do we do and how, and who do we need to engage and how do we be smart and strategic about this?
Elizabeth Dale: Well, if we take a giant step back, and I go back to kind of the industrialization era of the 18 hundreds, you know, philanthropy overall has been elite white male. Um, heteronormative. And even, even as things shift, even as we see more women become donors. Even as we acknowledge sort of the presence of more diversity in our societies, we're still seeing a lot of structural impediments to women. You know, having the same representation at the top too, seeing people of color in the fundraising profession. It's really, you know, white dominated. And we know that there are biases both largely unconscious but biases that have embedded themselves in us. And so we really need to be strategic and thoughtful and take action to try to disrupt any of these trends.
Cathy Mann: So something really interesting, uh, to me came up out of the session that you just ran and that was the quote that you said, "Our profession is colored white and ranked upper class"
Elizabeth Dale: So the nonprofit sector's gendered female but is coloured white and ranks upper class.
Cathy Mann: Right. And I think what's interesting is that when you have people, women who are in positions of privilege but who are also frustrated because they see their male counterparts, you know, in the higher roles and earning more money. So to ask us as white women to say, okay, don't just think about us, but who else is getting a raw deal? So people of color, um, non binary folks, whoever else it may be in the sector. I was at a session recently that had a lot of women philanthropists and some fundraisers and one of the women philanthropists was talking about her experience of philanthropy and why there wasn't a greater representation of women of color, uh, in the, in the, uh, community. And to the intense credit of this young woman who said, uh, well, I'm of South Asian background and I have done a lot of research in this. And, um, you know, your definition of philanthropy is somewhat limited. And so we really talk at AFP and I know I'm guilty of this too, when I talk about philanthropy, I'm thinking about it in terms of this Judeo Christian perspective. And I think that we need folks to remind us that that's not the case. And you know, the reason I say to this intense credit of this young woman who spoke up was that she was one of maybe only two women of color in the room. And, um, you know, I think that took courage to tap, so to speak.
Elizabeth Dale: One of the things that we see is, you know, every, every culture, every tradition, every faith tradition has philanthropy in it. But we've really limited what we've thought of as formalized philanthropy and formalized giving. And so, you know, I, I think we have a lot of hesitancy to go out into new communities and ask for gifts and we also know there's a lot of work to do before sometimes, you know, being able to ask for a gift in, in a community that looks very different from the one that maybe we grew up in. And so, you know, one of the, one of the things that I think responds directly to the fact that, you know, we look out in the profession and we have predominantly white female fundraisers is how, how are we recruiting people into the profession? You know, are we offering paid internships, almost like fellowships that make it possible for people from all different classes to gain experience as a, as a fundraiser and see if this careers for them.
Cathy Mann: Yeah.
Elizabeth Dale: I don't know if you're familiar with the phrase, you know, the best new donor is a, is a past donor. But that, you know, it's an adage and it has truth to it, but that act alone of looking back in an organization's database for past donors, we're just replicating existing patterns. And so, I mean, we, we have to even think of principles as fundamental as prospect research and donor modeling that are so, you know, we're so blinded to the potential that's out there, but we have to sort of get out of our own way.
Cathy Mann: Okay. Mind blown on that one. No, it's true. Because we also, you know, in a world of limited resources, we kind of go do path of least resistance, right? And so, yeah, past donors, the best donor.
Elizabeth Dale: So I teach, um, in a nonprofit leadership program, and I teach a lot about fundraising and philanthropy. So I've had students kind of bring that problem into the classroom. And, you know, one of the things that I try to encourage them to do is reflect on their own, um, philanthropy. Either gifts that they've received or gifts that they've given. And you know, recognize that we all have our own philanthropic story and one common place to begin with. Anyone, especially someone you're just getting to know or someone who might perceive as different from you is to say, you know, what's, what's your philanthropic story? What's your connection to philanthropy? Leave that definition open and let people define it for themselves and then start to have a conversation about it. They become really, really rich, really interesting conversations because we know that generosity has touched pretty much all of our lives and we reflect and remember fondly on those moments whether we're receiving or giving. And so by starting with that and sort of elevating the best part of, of the fundraising profession, maybe we can expand some of our definitions.
Cathy Mann: Yeah. Awesome. Before we started recording, you were telling me that you get to explore some, perhaps not entirely traditional topics when you're teaching because the university that you are involved in has a social justice lens to it.
Elizabeth Dale: So, so, um, I work at Seattle University, was founded by the Jesuits. So social justice is in the university's mission and was part of what brought me there. I was already doing research, looking at things like gender and LGBT donors, um, were the focus of my dissertation. And so it was something that I wanted to be able to do is continue that research at the university that I work at and then also bring those kinds of topics into the classroom. And you know, I think, I don't claim to have all the answers. And one of the things that I like to do with my students is try to think through how are we replicating, you know, existing paradigms even unintentionally. And so we think through some of these challenges together in the classroom and, and, uh, you know, try to draw on their knowledge. Uh, many of them are in the profession already. And so, you know, they've seen things or tried things and they provide great examples in the classroom.
Cathy Mann: How does anything jump to mind that you can think of that really has this social justice lens firmly imprinted on it?
Elizabeth Dale: Well, one of, one of the things that recently came to my attention is just the amount of debt that are master's students and graduate certificate students take on in their coursework and how formal fundraising education and certainly within colleges and universities is not cheap, but it's, I know it's more expensive in the US probably than it is in Canada, but, so one of the things I'm trying to do is raise money for scholarships to bring in more people of color to bring in veterans, to bring in LGBTQ individuals. Because, you know, I think there are lots of people who could be really great fundraisers and just haven't tried it yet or haven't had the opportunity to gain some experience in it. Um, and we see students all the time who are maybe shifting careers or wanting to go in a little bit of a different direction, maybe from a program position into a fundraising position. And so they ended up taking courses. But, you know, we don't want the cost of that education to be an impediment either.
Cathy Mann: Right. Yeah, I hear you. I mean we, you know, I used to run Ryerson University's fundraising management program and the price was a barrier to some people entering the profession. And a couple of us have scholarships set up so that we can help address that. But that's why I think I'm, I'm so proud of what AFP Toronto has done in terms of the work it's doing around and equity.
Elizabeth Dale: So I don't know if you're aware of, uh, of Blackbaud study diversity and giving that came out a couple years ago. Um, one of the things they looked at was how donors of different race and ethnicities, um, behave differently. But one of the findings that came through that report more than any other, and it's, it's stuck with me, is that fundraisers do not ask people of color for gifts at nearly the same rate as they do white donors. And that sort of, the number one reason that black Americans gave in terms of why they weren't giving more was because people weren't asking them. And so I think we, we make assumptions so often. And one of the things that I often show in my classes is even though there's, there's growing wealth inequality and wealth disparities among racial groups that there are in the US over 1.1 million millionaires of color. And so, you know, I don't want to, um, one of the things that I also try to say is like, there are donors out there, um, we just aren't very good at going out and connecting with them. And so, um, one of the things that we talk about in classes are, you know, how do you break out of those patterns of, of often existing networks and really cultivate authentic relationships with you. There are other with other individuals, what be they donors or partnering with organizations, sharing resources. And I think, um, I don't know, maybe you can tell me a little bit more about the Canadian context, but I think in the U S um, nonprofit organizations have seen each other as competitors for too long. And really, if we think more globally about trying to increase the size of the pie, what could be possible? So one of the things that I've had a few organizations tell me about instances where they've hosted like a joint fundraising event just to, just to grow the awareness of their organization and a completely new constituency. Um, and you know, those aren't without challenges and maybe it's not something that you can really put resources behind every year, but if it's part of your values as an organization or part of your mission, then you have to at least be doing it sometimes and you have to try.
Cathy Mann: Yeah. So I know like I have a total professional crush on the Toronto Foundation right now, but they are doing this collaborative fundraising effort where there, if you listened to the podcast with Sharon Avery, you'll know about this with, they are trying to ask a hundred women to give $100,000 in support of women's issues and they have 18 partner agencies that are part of, so groups like women's shelters and a group called Dress for Success and YWCA are part of those 18 partner agencies who are collaborating on this major gift initiative. And what I love so much about this is that these are a lot of smaller organizations that otherwise would not have an opportunity to think about asking donors for major gifts cause they just, they haven't gotten there yet. And their fundraising programs and now they've been given an opportunity to talk to donors and invite them to make gifts of $100,000. So the capacity building that's going on for them is incredible, but it's all within a shared platform, um, led by the Toronto Foundation.
Elizabeth Dale: Yeah, that's, that's an awesome example. Um, some of my research has focused around giving by women as well as giving to women's and girl's causes. And in the US we know that only about 7% of all foundation funding is directed to specifically women's and girls' issues. We've never had sort of a comparable number or even some idea of how many donors give to women's and girl's causes. So that's some research that, um, I have underway. Oh, cool. We started by just doing some surveys kind of in the, in the general population. Um, and we found that one in three women in a, and actually one in four men had said that they had given to a women's and girl's cause in the past year. Yeah. Now these are donors of all levels. And so now we're trying to kind of dig into that data a little bit more. I've also interviewed a 23 will women from women moving millions, including there, there were at least a two Canadians in the, in that group.
Cathy Mann: So what's women moving millions?
Elizabeth Dale: So women moving millions was an initiative that was started about 10 years ago and it was all to elevate giving to women's and girl's causes. Women can make a million dollar gift or pledge payable over as many as 10 years and they can direct it to any organization that they wish, but it was really elevate women's giving and to show sort of the field at large that there are plenty of women out there with the capacity to make these large gifts.
Cathy Mann: Okay.
Elizabeth Dale: Since they were established, they've had over 250 women sort of become part of their ranks.
Cathy Mann: Oh.
Elizabeth Dale: And in addition to being a donor, um, they do additional education programs, networking, um, they help elevate donors' voices, um, for, you know, public policy and, and yeah. You know, how to write an op ed and whatnot. Um, because many of these women don't just want to give with a cheque, they want to get involved in some other way. And so I had the opportunity to talk with about 23 of these women and a lot of them identify as a donor activists, which I certainly resonates with me. But, um, it's sort of a new era of giving.
Cathy Mann: Yeah.
Elizabeth Dale: And is it is a much more involved donor then I think we're accustomed to. And so that's going to change fundraising practices.
Cathy Mann: Well, yeah. Well, I, and I think that's both fascinating and I think some fundraisers are not looking forward to that because it will be a different relationship with, with your donors.
Elizabeth Dale: It definitely is. Yeah. Um, so I was a former, I'm a former fundraiser, so I have, I have a little bit of experience there, but you know, I think one of the things that I found absolutely horrifying, um, when with these interviews that I did with these million dollar donors, were the number of donors who said to me that the organization essentially stopped communicating with them after they had finished their gift and, or after the project that they were supporting wound down. And I was like, well, why? These are people who have the capacity to make another million dollar gift.
Cathy Mann: Yeah.
Elizabeth Dale: Um, so, you know, I think we focus on relationship building in this profession and, um, that takes a lot of work. And I know when you have turnover and you know, in your organization or with major gift officers, that can often become difficult, but, um, there's just no excuse for that.
Cathy Mann: Yeah, I know that's hard, right? Um, yeah, and I see it, I see it happen and I, and like you said, with turnover and circumstances, I can understand it, but you're right. It's, um, it is horrifying. It's sad.
Elizabeth Dale: Uh, on the upside though, one thing that I took away from all of these interviews, we're just the number of women who were really thinking about their identity as a philanthropist in expanded ways as not just a grant maker, but as either a true partner, as someone who really cares about the organization's while being, um, the connections between leadership of an organization and, and these mega gifts are so important. And having access to the leadership, it was really interesting to hear more from these donors about how they judged organizations and what they valued. And I also think if we had a whole sector of leaders of donors who wanted to invest not just money but time or thought that there could be a lot of, a lot of great things to come from it.
Cathy Mann: I know, I mean, we have some incredibly influential donors in, in all of our communities. And, uh, I, I do think that there are opportunities to leverage their involvement in more meaningful ways. And I hope we get there to be able to shift more because our world needs a bit of shift right now. So I have a confession to make. The session that I went to today I thought was your session on LGBT philanthropy. And it turned out not to be, but I was delighted the content. But now that I've got you, I am interested to know a little bit more about the research that you've done on LGBTQ donors.
Elizabeth Dale: Yeah. So when I was a PhD student at Indiana University, um, Lily Family school of philanthropy and it's the first school philanthropy in the world, I was really just shocked that no one had done any research about LGBTQ donors. Um, you know, uh, there's a great panel study that the school works on where they've tracked giving among the same group of people every couple of years. They get these, you know, this great data set and
Cathy Mann: like a longitudinal
Elizabeth Dale: Longitudinal study.
Cathy Mann: Oh, cool.
Elizabeth Dale: Um, and, and we've learned a lot from it, but you know, no one, there wasn't a large enough number of LGBTQ donors in that sample to really learn from. So I actually set out to do a qualitative study as part of my dissertation. And then since then we've been able to add sexual orientation and sexual orientation identity to some longer form surveys. And so we're starting to collect more and more data. But there is this general assumption that I felt kept being made that LGBTQ donors only wanted to support LGBTQ causes. And I was like, wait a minute. Um, I identify as lesbian. I'm like, you know, that's not me. I have lots of interests. I mean it is important to me. It's one thing that I would consider contributing to. Um, so I went out and I interviewed 19 couples about their charitable giving. And the reason I wanted to interview couples is I actually was interested in household, um, decision making and whether that looked different for a gay or lesbian couple or a same sex couple compared to a heterosexual couple. One of the things that a lot of the gender research has shown is that even though women have a voice and a lot of charitable decisions, that the household financial arrangements are still controlled predominantly by men. And so I'm like, well, in a same sex couple, what happens?
Cathy Mann: Yeah.
Elizabeth Dale: So I asked, um, these couples questions both about their charitable giving but also how they manage household finances. And so one of the great findings that came out of, of my research is that most of the couples, I would say about 75% had some individual control over money. So in the same sex couples, they were more likely to have independent control over some of their money. So they either rather than pooling all of the household income together and almost all of these couples, um, I had two people working. Um, they either had an, had a joint account and to individual accounts or just maintained individual financial accounts. So there's actually more places from which charitable giving could come from. Hmm. Um, and in the cases where all of the money was combined, it was often because, um, the to the partners had very different incomes. So there is a real higher earner, maybe someone who is just working part time or not working at all. It was, was raising children. And so they actually combine the income as a way to signal equity. Oh, both people had access to that funding. So then, you know, I talked with them about, well how does this influence your charitable giving? And what was really interesting is that even though there is this tendency for more independent control over finances, almost every gift carried both couples names on it. Even if the gift was primarily driven by one member of the couple over another, you know, to my alma mater or, or whatnot. Um, and you know, going back to that original assumption that all LGBTQ people give to LGBTQ causes, that was definitely not the case. Um, almost, uh, 80% of the of the individuals I interviewed made at least one gift to that area. But it was one gift among many. And you know, they were giving to food banks and healthcare and, uh, you know, their alma maters and the zoo. And so, um, you know, thinking about LGBTQ individuals as donors to any organization sort of reinforced for me the importance of is the organization sort of ready to interact with that donor. And we found some really important distinctions of what fundraisers need to think about.
Cathy Mann: Tell us, tell us, tell us!
Elizabeth Dale: Well,
Cathy Mann: I'm on the edge of my seat.
Elizabeth Dale: So, um, first, you know, one of the biggest takeaways is if in organization even had the perception of discrimination, whether that was against LGBTQ people or even another group of people, there is a real, you know, anywhere from a hesitation to an absolutely, I would not give under any circumstance to that organization. So it, it showed the value of organizations, um, you know, own diversity, equity and inclusion kinds of statements as well as their behaviors.
Cathy Mann: Yeah.
Elizabeth Dale: Another thing that was really interesting is we had some male couples who were giving and get and asking for recognition and really visible ways because they wanted to signal that, hey, we're a member of this community too trust.
Cathy Mann: Mmmm interesting
Elizabeth Dale: Um, and so one of my favorite stories, um, was a couple who gave the presidential chain to their Alma, which one of their Alma maters. So that every year at graduation in the commencement ceremony book, they were acknowledged and they're like, hey, you know, we're here, we're part of this community. And it was, you know, was a university and in a not very liberal state. And that was really important to them. Um, the number of instances of, of same sex couples, I'm still getting mail addressed as Mr and Mrs.
Cathy Mann: Yeah.
Elizabeth Dale: Um, was kind of atrocious, but it, it spoke to me that, you know, we really need, um, databases that are up to date with our social times and, and that, you know, that kind of behavior, even though it's, it's a microaction um, you know, if, if an organization can't get it right, you know, they could lose an important donor.
Cathy Mann: Yeah. Well, you know what we do, uh, Cathy Mann and Associates does a fair amount of work around databases and we've done some, we've had some clients that have a lot of LGBTQ clients themselves and the discussion internally about what do you do when someone doesn't have a salutation? Systems are better able to adapt to it then they were a while ago. But it's, it requires a fair amount of discussion and to really think through how to address that in the context of a system that, uh, has certain constraints.
Elizabeth Dale: Yeah, no, I mean it was just very apparent.
Cathy Mann: Yeah. Yeah. Um, anything else that those people in the fundraising community are thinking, how do we, how do we reach out to the LGBTQ donors out there and invite them to embrace us?
Elizabeth Dale: I think it still goes to say that, you know, you have to connect with donors about yeah. About what's important to them. Um, connect around shared values. Um, but you know, it brings up that idea of partnership again, you know, if you're looking to diversify your, your fundraising base, um, why not partner maybe with an LGPTQ organization to have an event, um, to, you know, cultivate that kind of goodwill in a community that might not know you as well. Taking those chances and, and really kind of extending a hand, a welcoming hand can go a long way.
Cathy Mann: Yeah. Very cool.
Elizabeth Dale: One of the things that was interesting in my interviews and I haven't been able to test it among a larger population, so I can't say for sure that this would hold. Um, but I had several lesbian couples who talked about several white lesbian couples who talked about giving to antiracism efforts.
Cathy Mann: Oh, interesting.
Elizabeth Dale: You know, when one of the things that academics talk about is intersectionality and you know, there are I think interesting ways that our individual identities, um, might drive us to support causes that maybe we don't directly identify with, but we identify with in other ways. And similar to that, there's a great new research study by the women's philanthropy institute about giving after the 2016 presidential election in the US and I don't know if the term rage giving made its way to Canada.
Cathy Mann: No, I have not heard this, but I like it
Elizabeth Dale: Well after the Trump election, there was sort of this ground swell of giving that happened in the US and a lot of the media termed it rage giving. And so the, this group of researchers actually set out to, to say first, did that really happen? And second who drove that? That giving. And so what they did was they compared a week of online giving through a third party platform.
Cathy Mann: Yup.
Elizabeth Dale: For the week after the 2016 election and then to a comparable week, both in 2015 and 2017. Okay. And what they found was that overall the, the amount that had been gifted was not very different.
Cathy Mann: Oh, interesting.
Elizabeth Dale: But who was giving it and where it was going, I had changed. And so what they saw were organizations that were really affiliated with, um, progressive issues. Things like immigrant rights, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, saw bumps in, in their giving, and that that giving was driven by women. Um, so not, not all donors, not male donors, but women were really giving to these progressive causes and the week after the 2016 elections.
Cathy Mann: Very interesting. I do think that, I mean, this is not a particularly original insight, but yeah, women are going to change the world of philanthropy.
Elizabeth Dale: Well, I think we've seen that it's happening, right? So we're, we're in the midst of it. I think where it goes. Um, you know, you know, we, I don't have a crystal ball as much as I would like one, but I'm excited to see how it unfolds. And it's, it's a reason that we need, um, continued research as well. Um, you know, to understand how things are shifting and changing and certainly as women have earned more attained, higher levels of education, we know the opportunities for philanthropy continue to grow as well.
Cathy Mann: Yeah. I'm really interested actually about what you said around, uh, you know, we need more research in the sector and, um, what's your view on where we're at, where we've come from. I mean, we're seeing a growth in research to pretty significant growth in research in the last few years. Um, but you probably have a much different perspective on it than I do. Any, any thoughts about that? Where, yeah. Where have you seen it coming from and, uh, where do you see it going?
Elizabeth Dale: Well, there's definitely been a huge growth in, in research. We know, you know, fundraising used to be taught almost exclusively on practitioner insights and, and just rep repetition and replication.
Cathy Mann: Yeah.
Elizabeth Dale: And you know, that generated a lot of best practices. However, academic research is adding more and more dimensions to that.
Cathy Mann: Yeah.
Elizabeth Dale: We know a lot now about who's giving, how much they're giving. We're still trying to uncover the why behind giving. And there there's always a push for more about donor motivations. And so I would say keep an eye out. Some social psychologists are getting involved in philanthropic research and what they're starting to look at I think is, is so cutting edge. And so interesting. I'm really excited for the future of that. I think that one of the challenges is getting the academic research out to practitioners.
Cathy Mann: This is going to be my next question to you. So this is actually one of my, you know, what do you call that pet projects or pet peeves I'm not sure is that there is some really interesting research out there, but practitioners are not accessing it and if they even stumble across it, um, it's, it's not super accessible and yeah, you know, like not many people are going to sit down and read. Um, with all due respect your dissertation. Right. And so how do we take this incredible wealth of new knowledge and turn it into something that practitioners will actually be able to digest?
Elizabeth Dale: Well, you know, and the other thing is we need as academics, we need partners in this, in this research all the time. So um a great example is, is a study I'm actually working on now about plan giving. Um, and I am partnering with 20 Plus nonprofit organizations who are going to survey the donors using are there donors using our survey instrument. But we've, we've really jointly constructed these questions and hopefully we'll not only be creating knowledge for academic knowledge but to inform practice as well. So I'm a big proponent of partnerships between academics and fundraisers. Of course it takes time. But, um, and thinking, you know, one of the other things is it allows us ahead of time to think about how we'll disseminate that work. Um, you know, again, no quick fixes, um, but you know, get to know your local philanthropic studies or, or fundraising faculty, um, and try to, you know, cross pollinate wherever possible things like this conference.
Cathy Mann: Yeah. A year or two ago, I was at the Governor General at the time of Canada, held a conference and it had a lot of fundraising practitioners but also a whole bunch of pro social scientists. And I ended up talking to the pro social scientists and one of them said, oh, well we'd love to partner with with fundraisers, but we don't know how to find them. And I thought, wow, I didn't think we were that hard to find. And, and it occurred to me that like there's a lot of fundraisers who would love to be part of that partnership, but we really don't know how to find pro social scientists who are doing this kind of work. Like it's one thing to say, you know, uh, be friend, your local philanthropy program at a college or university. But so much of the research that's coming out about us is being led by disciplines that have nothing to do with fundraising.
Elizabeth Dale: Yeah. So I mean, it is a very interdisciplinary field. Yeah. But you know, I do think there's a number of journals and I'm not going to even name them because they are inaccessible, but I'm involved with AFP and you know, I encourage some of my colleagues to do that as well. And, and we think that's one, one of the great ways to share research and also, you know, as academics we want to know what your questions are. Um, you know, my question is sort of brought me back to research and, and made me go back for my PhD. Hmm. Um, but hopefully I have a long career of doing research ahead of me and so at some point my questions might run out.
Cathy Mann: Yeah. Yeah. Somehow I doubt that. Uh, so I guess this is a call out to any pro social scientists who are hearing this podcast or anyone who knows pro social scientists. Fundraisers are totally down for this. We want to partner with you, uh, reach out to me, reach out to any association of fundraising professionals chapter around the world. Yeah. And similarly, if you're a fundraiser and you have questions for academics, uh, let us know. We'll post it on a podcast and uh, see what, where, where that takes it.
Elizabeth Dale: Yeah. You could try some crowdsourcing of research, right?
Cathy Mann: Yes. Yeah. I love it. Elizabeth, this was amazing. This was fun. Uh, I will admit that I didn't know what I was going to ask you exactly when we started this process and it was very easy. Thank you so much for being part of it doesn't hurt to ask and for uh, you know, as we like to say, talking shift with us.
Elizabeth Dale: Well thanks for having me and I'm very glad you asked and hopefully we got a little bit of research out to the fundraising community too.
Cathy Mann: Yeah. To all the research nerds out there. Listen Up. What I love about Elizabeth is that her research is informed by real life fundraising experience. If you like what you heard and want to hear about others talking shift go on over too, it doesn't hurt to ask podcast.com subscribe on iTunes or stitcher. This podcast was produced by poodle party productions. Good girl, Brandy and Cathy Mann associates and the ever patient podcast producer, Anne Lemesurier. The music you heard was Dog Days by Isaac Joel. Now remember in fundraising as in life, it doesn't hurt to ask.